MS litmus tests
Jul. 23rd, 2008 10:24 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
estiriseI was just thinking about the Mary Sue Litmus tests lately while working on archiving my OCs. (In fact, two of my characters are variantly-named "Mary Sue", though probably they're not obvious.) The popularity of litmus tests have waxed and waned over the years I've been familiar with them, and I bet at least some people argue that they're now way out of style.
Litmus tests also exist in most of my fandoms (even though some are a bit tough to find), though not in tokusatsu fandoms. I'm not sure if the fans are just not interested, that we don't have as much a problem, or just, as before, the idea/popularity of the litmus test has faded.
I admittedly don't read much Sentai fic, Ultraman fic tends to be rather rare, fic for other Metal Heroes, Godzilla, and other misc Tokus pretty much nonexistent. I admit, I tend not to read Original Rider (that's people with original Kamen Riders, not Kamen Rider 1, the Original Kamen Rider) fic a lot when I'm on fanfiction.net.
But I bet that there are some things which I think are universal to all Sues/Stus. Hair color, background, all the normal signs that make a Mary Sue or Gary Stu in one world work in any series (unless said things were normal, of course). So in some ways, I'm not sure that we need one.
I have to wonder if there was anything unique to the various parts of Toku fandom that would stand out or not stand out on a litmus test? After all, there are transforming heroes in many of the Toku series. It's not impossible to be an Ultraman or a Kamen Rider or a Sentai team member, it's just not very common. A person who's never run across a supernatural being before probably won't take something unusual as normal, unless you're talking maybe Kurenai Otoya, who's merely good at covering up any reaction to things he runs across. You tell the average person that they've been selected to be a superhero, and unless they're in a special mindframe, they're going to probably think you're nuts and say "no thank you". (To pull a Power Rangers example, Wes disbelieved Jen; the original Rangers turned down being Rangers - basically, a refusal of the call.)
So, in that way, I kind of have to wonder what makes an Original Rider interesting to read? Why should I be interested in Kamen Rider W over Kamen Rider Y, over the adventures of Kamen Rider Den-O? To some extent, the Original Kamen Rider writers have a blessing and a handicap in my eyes. They're not trying to make their characters bigger and badder compared to, say, Wataru or Tendou or Kenzaki on the same page. But they have a tougher job convincing me that I should pause and take time to read their fic; I prefer fics about characters I'm familiar with. (Okay, most Kamen Rider series also are about guys and write big massive battles, at least the one ones I've read, which is not what I'm interested in. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many female OC Riders I've seen.)
As I said, some things are going to be normal in our series which wouldn't be on, say, CSI (or any variation). We have giant men fighting giant monsters; three to six person squads in mecha fighting giant monsters. Giant monsters in themselves, which may or may not be fighting other monsters. People fighting monsters that don't get big. Heck, I watch a series about an intelligent cellphone that often leads to battling another intelligent cellphone!
Maybe I can use that series as an example of what I would and would not expect to find, what kind of character would qualify as Sue-ish. All the Phone Bravers have their own abilities, and they are very powerful for cellphones. But, generally speaking, they are mechanical beings and they do break/have to be in for repair. Seven's been there multiple times. Their 'buddies' are only human, though most of them are more competent than Keita, the main lead. These are people who have their own faults and their own quirks and their own strengths.
I would find it hard, though I could be convinced, that Keita would fall in love (with a person of either sex). He just doesn't seem interested in such things. Kirihara is competent enough that someone *more* competent in the field would have to have a good introduction. And introducing a new Phone Braver would have to be handled with care; there are only three of them that we haven't met yet. There would have to be a good reason for a new Buddy (especially a female one) to show up that's shown to be more competent than Kirihara, with a Buddy that's even better than Seven or Third. (Or even Zero-One; he might be callous, but he's not dumb.) Fortunately, there's so little fic for Keitai that this isn't too much of a concern.
I think it's because I want to read someone who seems real, who had doubts and worries. I want them to not get along with everyone. Sure, there are people who seem to like pretty much everybody in Toku (Kenzaki, Kotarou, Keitarou, Wataru seems to like an awful amount of people). But they're the exception; not everybody's going to like an OC, and I don't mean the cranky characters. (Nago not liking someone is nothing unusual, but he's not particularly going to go out of his way to have a special dislike unless you've done something wrong or he's gone particularly insane that day. Wataru might be confused by something he sees, but he's not going to instantly dislike something either unless you're a Fangire and you're harming humans.)
Maybe there aren't any real litmus tests for sues for any of the toku fandoms, though I'd love to have some kind of guide for people to avoid. (Of course, telling people what canon not to abuse would be good too.) I'm afraid that my taste in things isn't everybody elses' taste in things.
Toku fandom, what do you think?
EDIT: Yes, my 'S' key is giving me problems, why do you ask?
Litmus tests also exist in most of my fandoms (even though some are a bit tough to find), though not in tokusatsu fandoms. I'm not sure if the fans are just not interested, that we don't have as much a problem, or just, as before, the idea/popularity of the litmus test has faded.
I admittedly don't read much Sentai fic, Ultraman fic tends to be rather rare, fic for other Metal Heroes, Godzilla, and other misc Tokus pretty much nonexistent. I admit, I tend not to read Original Rider (that's people with original Kamen Riders, not Kamen Rider 1, the Original Kamen Rider) fic a lot when I'm on fanfiction.net.
But I bet that there are some things which I think are universal to all Sues/Stus. Hair color, background, all the normal signs that make a Mary Sue or Gary Stu in one world work in any series (unless said things were normal, of course). So in some ways, I'm not sure that we need one.
I have to wonder if there was anything unique to the various parts of Toku fandom that would stand out or not stand out on a litmus test? After all, there are transforming heroes in many of the Toku series. It's not impossible to be an Ultraman or a Kamen Rider or a Sentai team member, it's just not very common. A person who's never run across a supernatural being before probably won't take something unusual as normal, unless you're talking maybe Kurenai Otoya, who's merely good at covering up any reaction to things he runs across. You tell the average person that they've been selected to be a superhero, and unless they're in a special mindframe, they're going to probably think you're nuts and say "no thank you". (To pull a Power Rangers example, Wes disbelieved Jen; the original Rangers turned down being Rangers - basically, a refusal of the call.)
So, in that way, I kind of have to wonder what makes an Original Rider interesting to read? Why should I be interested in Kamen Rider W over Kamen Rider Y, over the adventures of Kamen Rider Den-O? To some extent, the Original Kamen Rider writers have a blessing and a handicap in my eyes. They're not trying to make their characters bigger and badder compared to, say, Wataru or Tendou or Kenzaki on the same page. But they have a tougher job convincing me that I should pause and take time to read their fic; I prefer fics about characters I'm familiar with. (Okay, most Kamen Rider series also are about guys and write big massive battles, at least the one ones I've read, which is not what I'm interested in. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many female OC Riders I've seen.)
As I said, some things are going to be normal in our series which wouldn't be on, say, CSI (or any variation). We have giant men fighting giant monsters; three to six person squads in mecha fighting giant monsters. Giant monsters in themselves, which may or may not be fighting other monsters. People fighting monsters that don't get big. Heck, I watch a series about an intelligent cellphone that often leads to battling another intelligent cellphone!
Maybe I can use that series as an example of what I would and would not expect to find, what kind of character would qualify as Sue-ish. All the Phone Bravers have their own abilities, and they are very powerful for cellphones. But, generally speaking, they are mechanical beings and they do break/have to be in for repair. Seven's been there multiple times. Their 'buddies' are only human, though most of them are more competent than Keita, the main lead. These are people who have their own faults and their own quirks and their own strengths.
I would find it hard, though I could be convinced, that Keita would fall in love (with a person of either sex). He just doesn't seem interested in such things. Kirihara is competent enough that someone *more* competent in the field would have to have a good introduction. And introducing a new Phone Braver would have to be handled with care; there are only three of them that we haven't met yet. There would have to be a good reason for a new Buddy (especially a female one) to show up that's shown to be more competent than Kirihara, with a Buddy that's even better than Seven or Third. (Or even Zero-One; he might be callous, but he's not dumb.) Fortunately, there's so little fic for Keitai that this isn't too much of a concern.
I think it's because I want to read someone who seems real, who had doubts and worries. I want them to not get along with everyone. Sure, there are people who seem to like pretty much everybody in Toku (Kenzaki, Kotarou, Keitarou, Wataru seems to like an awful amount of people). But they're the exception; not everybody's going to like an OC, and I don't mean the cranky characters. (Nago not liking someone is nothing unusual, but he's not particularly going to go out of his way to have a special dislike unless you've done something wrong or he's gone particularly insane that day. Wataru might be confused by something he sees, but he's not going to instantly dislike something either unless you're a Fangire and you're harming humans.)
Maybe there aren't any real litmus tests for sues for any of the toku fandoms, though I'd love to have some kind of guide for people to avoid. (Of course, telling people what canon not to abuse would be good too.) I'm afraid that my taste in things isn't everybody elses' taste in things.
Toku fandom, what do you think?
EDIT: Yes, my 'S' key is giving me problems, why do you ask?
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Litmus Tests.
Date: 2008-07-23 07:57 pm (UTC)I mean, okay, I don't like reading Sues. I find them so utterly boring and flat. But they are a natural part of writing. Which is why I tend to adopt the live and let live philosophy with them. Most of the people writing Sues either don't want to change or aren't ready to change. It's just not worth the headaches to run around yelling at them.
Re: Litmus Tests.
Date: 2008-07-26 01:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-07-24 05:47 pm (UTC)I'm not sure if the fans are just not interested, that we don't have as much a problem, or just, as before, the idea/popularity of the litmus test has faded.
If I have to guess, I think it's probably the combination of the first two. Or more accurately, the toku fandom doesn't seem all that large to me compared to other fandoms, so relatively speaking, there are simply less people to do things and/or potentially cause problem. And also maybe there is an unwritten rule somewhere that, since toku seems so much a very specific niche, people are more likely to go with the flow than to upset the status quo with some sort of regulation.
I'd love to have some kind of guide for people to avoid.
I think that kind of guide would depend much on a reader's expectation of what is or is not Mary Sue. Personally, I'm not quite sure if the terms OC and Mary Sue can be used interchangeably. Not all OCs are sues and not all sues are OCs in my book (I've seen a few canon sues, after all). Still, even working on the assumption that all sues are OCs, there is still a question of taste. One reader's tolerance of how "special" the sues are might be higher than that of another reader. Perhaps fic blurbs would be helpful, but still...they could sometimes be (unintentionally) misleading.
I've never tried this, and don't know of its practical usefulness, but maybe run a word search on the sue's name? If it comes up substantially more times than all instances of the names of the main cast combined, I might consider giving the story (that I'm otherwise not very certain of) a skip. Not an accurate test, of course (what if the author just likes to use pronouns?), but better than nothing, I suppose.
(Of course, telling people what canon not to abuse would be good too.)
Yes, a detailed write-up of a series would be ideal. But there's again a question of taste (and expectation). I'm not sure if everyone who has seen a specific series can really agree on what is or is not canon.
no subject
Date: 2008-07-26 01:38 am (UTC)It may be that Toku fandom is too small to have this kind of worry, I agree. Spelling and grammar tend to be more of a problem than whether an OC's a sue/stu.
And... I should probably go back to my researching and not try to wax philosophical on a Friday night. :)